Capital Punishment

Over here in America it takes years for the death penalty to be carried out. Appeal after appeal can drag it on forever.

They have no death penalty in Canada so the miscreant who took that young man's life so brutally and with no reason will just go to jail. Besides he got charged with 2nd degree murder because he didn't premeditate it. So what I say, he butchered a human being he had never met for whatever reason, personal gratification, insanity, he should never see the outside of a prison again.

Here are some wise words penned by J.R.R.Tolkien in Fellowship of the Rings

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? Do not be eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.

There is allot of truth in that I believe.

Very difficult topic.  I personally don't believe in the death penalty under any circumstances, because of my moral and religious beliefs, but I don't believe in molly coddling prisoners who commit heinous crimes.  A life in prison sentence should be just that, life in prison.  And the worst of the worst don't deserve any kind of human fellowship. As for cruel and unusual punishment, I don't believe that a 10X10 cell and 3 squares a day is cruel and unusual.  When people like you're talking about make the choice to commit murder, they are making the choice to remove themselves from human society.

Your question, Diana, about whether it's some evil spirit or something of that nature that would cause someone to do something particularly heinous - I don't know.  As Sue described about the person she knows, you always hear about how friends and family are in disbelief because the perpetrator was the wonderful boy or girl nextdoor.  A person like that is thoroughly sick in his or her soul and mind, then the question becomes does he or she deserve our sympathy or our derision?  Ultimately, we all make choices, despite our upbringing.  There are plenty of people who grew up in appalling circumstances who have chosen not to give in to evil and depravity. 

Very hard to answer this one and be completely honest, as all who have answered have found out.

But I will say that I believe in truth of sentencing where life means life, 25yrs. means exactly that and not time off for being a good boy etc;

You do the crime- You do the time.

Some of the really evil monsters that are eventualy released back into society we would be better off without.

Two years ago this October I was an juror in exactly that, an "death Pentalty"case, grand jury trial..it went on every day for about two months....it was highly video taped and on the news. Which they used an tricky means to keep us from seeing the news. We were never without police protection through the whole case in the court room and there were times I was wondering if we were doing some kind of "movie" for TV it was so surreal.   It was intense, and it was bloody and it made no sense. This was an case of an man that had gotten into an fight with his father and this man literally "flipped" and when an younger step-sister jumped on his back as he went for an knife and was trying to kill the father, he turned on her and stabbed her 17 times. She was 8 years old. I mean we went through everything, the knives, the pictures of the blood on the ceiling at the crime scene, the girl's dead body, it mad eyou want to puke in ways with the boold scenes.. his childhood, his adulthood, his drugs, his child bearing, his homelessness, what lead up to it all and what happened afterwards..and testimony after testimony of the doctors, the police and what-not. We heard from his relatives also. This was an "Kid" no one ever seemed to have the time for but to abuse in ways. He had never killed before that we knew of. But being an drug dealer at one time you never know. That is pretty much how much of this was also, you just didnt' know...they had people there that were well educated and some of the best in thier field as to psychartrist's. Some were for him, some were against him. It had to be an majority vote for the death penalty and of course they tell you...it can not be without an doubt that he's guilty to give such an verdict. Even us jurors were interesting people. I asked them afterwards why they picked me, they said because I had worked in the medical field enough to know some about it, and I was an neighborhood "mom" to younger kids. They told us afterward that he was so "crazy" in some ways that he did things to hurt his own defense and they actually had to work together just to get him in court...and present his case. Had they waited much longer he could of been out on the streets for lack of prudent time in his trail date and court appearance according to our laws of an "speedy and "just" trial. He had been locked up since the night of the murder and going from the state hospital to various jails in the area until he could come to his senses enough to understand his case...and what was going on in his defense. Our first "vote" was essentailly "kill him"  But we had this little gal with an Irish brogue, that brought us around to lookig it all over again, with her tears of saying, an quick emotionaless "verdict" is not being "humane"..it was not "jusitce" served either. and we let her present her side of what she saw and why and we slowly pieced the details of his life back again, piece by piece. By the time we got done, we had seen his early life one of "mental" denial to survive. We to this day don't know if this father whom had died of cancer earlier had actually "raped" him being on drugs besides beating him or not in his "rages" under the age of 10 continually or not. We could see by the time his father introduced him to drug selling for supporting himself that he was an pretty good "lier" in everything he did. The only gal that he said that he ever "loved" and we are unsure if he could do that, we knew he could "cry" inside all the time, and beg for attention and wanted to be loved and cared for...but we couldn't ever establish if that was allowed before the "denial" stepped in...in his usual way of handling life. He considered her an "whore" most the time in their relationship. She felt like he was an "pimp" and they seemed to both in reguard to human relationships be a bit mentally retarded in ways. They had one child, whom because she was on drugs and he couldn't support became an "ward of the state". He never showed up to contest it. At the time he went back to living with his faher...suposedly outside...in his car...he had lost his job. Homeless for the most part. He only had one decent supporting job in his entire life for the most part anyway. Again he was an bit hot tempered and didn't understand life as it was, and always the "denial" kicked in of the real situation and how to handle it correctly. The night of the crime he was in "fear" of being kicked out of the house apparently, and i tlooked liek eh was beign set up by hsi dad to be kciked out in ways,,, and we will never really know what it was all about, it may of been more then just that. This one gal that he loved supposedly was the mother of the little girl he killed...whom turned to "service" his father "getting back" at him. He says before he "snapped" that he thought his father was her. I often wondered what his life would of been like had he been allowed to live an normal life to begin with...or is it possible these days?  We all argreed on that one.This little Irish gal, whom was into writing screen plays with her hubby for theatrical plays and TV shows, had apparently been around enough of this kind of stuff to know what to look for.  As we followed his life we could see  from her pointing things out that after he had been arrested  and held by authroies of some kind, that primairly throughout all this time, on his own, he had broken his life long drug habit...and was perhaps coming around to actually knowing what "living" really was all about in the world without retreating into his state of denial in fear of his personal survival and safety. Actually by the time we met up with him, he was closer to an "normal" esistence then he had EVER known prior in ways. We only had to make judgements on the "premediated murder" and the death penalty as to if he was "sane" when he did this act or not. It was up to the judge to decide his fate from our verdicts. We gave him an "premediated murder" on his father and an "insane" on the killing of his younger sister. I was not there for the sentencing but as far as I know the judge gave him an 20 year, at the earliest parole in an maxiium security jail. It was suggested that often the criminals convicted have their own "code" for children rapists and murders and it's not pretty, many are killed by the innmates themselves....we were also afraid of his having the abilty to do "drugs" through others in jail. The state hospital hated him, he spent some time informing others of their "rights" that was not liked by the head honchos. In fact their testimony was he was guilty. They said cleverly "smart" as an button...and played upon his insanity when it was needed. So I think his being where the judge put him one of mercy in ways. Though I hear that these days the hosptials like to use prisoners as hospital "research" subjects and I think that ought to stop. I think the judge gave him almost 30 years in total, not sure now. I figured that at his earliest partol that most of us not dead by then, would be with one foot in the ground in age by then. We were offered psyschological help after the trial, as it was so intensive. I didn't go, because I had to "get on" with my own life. I was already having health issues by then anyway. One other thing did come to mind though and that was with his father dying of cancer, was this little girl's mother coming back into her life to make her into an "child prostitue", and if there were an motive to kill her, which doesn't seem to be, would that have been an motive if he was "playing" on everyone, or more so, did his childhood come back and he killed her knowig it would be the only way out for her in her life from what he had been through. We may never know.  I think if I were him, I'd walked away and never went back though. I guess easily said if your looking from the outisde "in" though. I have come to understand trial lawyers as  savy an actor/actress, as any movie star in their defending their cleints. It's nice to know this out of my life. He got an second chance, meager as it is, and I hope that he doesn't  "blow it" and goes on an different route then what he's been previously...straightens up and uses his time to do something worthwile for himself and the world.           

I think that with the present state of affairs the police force in the UK find themselves in, it would be impossible to bring in the death penalty. I agree with Jo when she reminds us of Barry George and the Jill Dando murder, as far as we can tell, he's innocent and has served 8 years behind bars unfairly. Apart from the fact an innocent man has been put through hell, we, the tax payers, will have to stump up for his compensation, the retrial (not cheap!) and whatever else the lawyers feel fit to put on the bill.

There's far too much pressure put on our overstretched police forces in murder cases (and other serious crimes), especially the Jill Dando case with all the public outrage that went with it, as she was a well known celebrity in this country. It just seems to me that, even with the best forensic evidence, bad decisions are made, that would be totally irreversible in cases like the Dando case.

I'm totally amazed, however, that living, and indeed, dying in Fulham, no evidence was found on CCTV. On my many trips to the capital city, especially the Fulham/Chelsea areas, my mind boggles at the amount of cameras present, and that's just the obvious ones, let alone the covert cameras.

I detest the incredibly gruesome crimes that we seem to be witnessing in the UK these days, but even so, without 100% certainty how can we put someone to death?

I agree completely with this statement Wolf.  It's not easy to condemn someone to death but if he/she is given a life sentence then that is exactly what they should serve.  How many times have we heard of cases where a murderer or child molester got out on good behavior and then proceeded to commit another crime?  How many innocent lives equal "good behavior"?

This topic makes me think of a quote from C.S. Lewis:

"An explanation of cause is not a justification by reason."

Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them Frodo? Do not be eager to deal out death in judgement. Even the very wise cannot see all ends.