The Soapbox Thread

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Bob T Posts: 934 Joined: 8th Jan 2009 Location: USA	quotePosted at 21:30 on 2nd February 2009 Real reasons for big bailouts Posted: January 26, 2009 1:00 am Eastern © 2009 George Bush let Treasury Secretary Paulson talk him into believing that he had to destroy capitalism in order to save it. The plan was to borrow massively against future American generations' paychecks to solve problems caused by previous massive borrowing. Last fall's $700 billion TARP bailout (assembled secretly in panic by Ted Geithner and others) was sold as crucial to save the economy from a cascade of bank failures and the elimination of credit. The original idea was to back up debt securities that were failing because of the real estate bust – debt securities that were largely owned by foreigners with a big chunk owned by the Chinese. The panic was caused by the thoroughly predictable inability of over-leveraged homeowners to pay "liar loan" mortgages that had been obtained using phony appraisals. Laws requiring banks to continue to loan mortgage money to un-credit-worthy people to expand the "American dream" of homeownership are still on the books and still being enforced. It's not a mystery why credit was drying up last fall when more and more banks refused to participate in this government-mandated Ponzi scheme without having the resultant bad debt guaranteed by the taxpayers. Worse yet, passage of the Bush bailout caused other entities seeking their own bailout to form a line. American Express sought to change its legal status to "banking" to qualify for a handout, and the auto industry didn't even bother with any such fig leaf justification when its executives came begging for a handout just because they needed the money. Even worse yet, the Bush bailout has failed. The banks have plenty of money but are using it to pay off their own debts and improve their balance sheets.In many cases banks flush with taxpayers money are using it to buy competitors, making sources of needed credit even scarcer. For example, Bank of America got $25 billion from the Bush bailout and promptly bought Merrill Lynch and a stake in the Bank of China, while cutting off or limiting credit to even its most credit-worthy customers. President Obama's proposed $825 billion "stimulus" bill will make matters much worse. While the Bush plan was a bailout of the private sector, the Obama plan is a bailout of government and a transparent plan to transform government into the dominant entity of American life and the Democratic Party as the permanent ruling class. Under the Obama plan, hundreds of billions of dollars would go to cash-strapped local and state governments with the most irresponsible of those getting the most aid. California, for example, has committed to spending $42 billion more than the state has over the next 12 months. The Democrat-controlled legislature has repeatedly stymied spending cuts, arguing for tax increases, while California's unemployment rate is poised to break into double digits. Look for California to seek the $42 billion from national taxpayers under the Obama public sector rescue plan. Under the Obama plan, tens of billions of dollars will go to special interest groups within the Democratic Party coalition. ACORN, for example, will be eligible for more millions of taxpayer dollars than it already has to continue voter registration (voter fraud?) activities to help cement Democrat majorities across the country. Planned Parenthood, environmental organizations and even trial lawyers have all been in Washington to make sure they get a piece of the "bailout" as well. Finally, the Obama plan provides for "tax cuts." The bulk of these "cuts" would be direct grants to Americans who already pay no income taxes. The pursuit of "tax fairness" has prompted both Republican and Democratic institutions to raise the threshold of income earned before any income tax is paid. And, in a bipartisan consensus, the Earned Income Tax Credit has provided "refunds" to taxpayers who paid no tax in the first place. The result to date is that more than a third of income-earning Americans pay no income tax, and many of these receive an annual subsidy in the form of EITC "refund." The Obama plan would expand the number of income-earning Americans who pay no income tax to more than 50 percent, thus providing a permanent base of majority vote to "tax the rich" and a permanent majority of votes to re-elect Democrats to office. It's now evident that the Obama-Reid-Pelosi Democratic Party has been handed the ultimate opportunity by George Bush to make government the dominant institution in American life. Which banks succeed and which fail will now be determined by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. Which car manufacturers survive will now depend on whether their car designs meet with Nancy Pelosi's approval. Endless bailouts will provide trillions of dollars to ensure that every block in every neighborhood is organized by and for the Democratic Party. They will ensure that a permanent majority of voters will be mobilized to soak the rich to pay for "free" health care, and mortgage bailouts for the irresponsible paid for by the fools still making mortgage payments. Most Americans cannot fathom the illogic of going into even deeper debt to correct problems caused by reckless borrowing. This just does not make sense. But beneath the propaganda that tries to justify this illogic lies the reality that these "bailouts" represent the financing of a radical reconstruction of American society. This is the real reason (in addition to a flaccid Republican opposition) why despite overwhelming public disapproval, the serial bailouts will continue. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87117 My favourite: Pictures \| Towns \| Attractions
Diana Sinclair Posts: 10119 Joined: 3rd Apr 2008 Location: USA	quotePosted at 21:36 on 2nd February 2009 On 2nd February 2009 20:56, Ron Brind wrote: Can't remember Diana, who was it? Here is a cut and paste of my original rebuttal to Aunt Miya, Ron: Hello Aunt Miya, I wanted to be the first to welcome you to the site and to say thank you for volunteering to be our relationship advisor. I just need to correct you on one thing lest my friends here at POE misunderstand the circumstances and think me an ungrateful twit. First of all, I was only twelve years old when you selected my “beau”; and though I know you disagree, I was far too young to be married. Second, he was forty-five, was missing his two front teeth, constantly scratched and complained about the critters “down there”, called his mother “sister”, and thought passing gas over an open flame was funny. I think my POE friends will understand that I wasn’t overly impressed with him. My favourite: Pictures \| Towns \| Attractions
Ron Brind Posts: 19041 Joined: 26th Oct 2003 Location: England	quotePosted at 21:46 on 2nd February 2009 So you don't want a man with a bit of fire in his belly then? Thanks for looking it up Diana, so funny! Did Aunt Miya ever get married? My favourite: Pictures \| Towns \| Attractions
Diana Sinclair Posts: 10119 Joined: 3rd Apr 2008 Location: USA	quotePosted at 21:49 on 2nd February 2009 Ron! Don't you remember uncle Bobo? Aunt Miya talks about him all the time. My favourite: Pictures \| Towns \| Attractions
Ron Brind Posts: 19041 Joined: 26th Oct 2003 Location: England	quotePosted at 21:57 on 2nd February 2009 Of course I do, put it down to another 'senior moment'. My favourite: Pictures \| Towns \| Attractions
Paul Hilton Posts: 2605 Joined: 21st Nov 2004 Location: UK	quotePosted at 22:42 on 2nd February 2009 Referring to Bob's post above, I wish I paid no income tax ! For our non-UK visitors, here's roughly the situation here, as personal circumstances can cause these figures to vary. The personal allowance is currently £6,035 for those up to 65. The amount you can earn before you start paying income tax, if other personal factors don't alter this figure. Then the tax rate is £0--£34,800 taxed at 20% and over £34,800 then at 40%. A second job isn't allowed this allowance and will be taxed as above on anything earnt. Then there's National Insurance to add to this; in my own case, about another 10% deducted. But, the government isn't finshed with you yet as there is 17.5% VAT/ sales tax on the vast majority of things you buy; though temporarily, this is now 15%; a reduction of 2.1%, not 2.5% as some think. My favourite: Pictures \| Towns \| Attractions
Bob T Posts: 934 Joined: 8th Jan 2009 Location: USA	quotePosted at 00:07 on 3rd February 2009 Paul, As the old saying goes, the rich get richer, the poor have babies, and the middle-class working stiff pays for it all. My favourite: Pictures \| Towns \| Attractions
Shirley K. Lawson Posts: 2310 Joined: 17th Jul 2008 Location: USA	quotePosted at 04:34 on 3rd February 2009 On 2nd February 2009 19:48, Ron Brind wrote: >>>There is an under-current talk of "revolution" here if this keeps going on... Get the same feeling here in the UK Shirley, just don't see any end to it all, and as you suggest the fat cats still get the cream! Just one problem, the fat cats might get the cream, but there isn' t anyone left to milk the cow for them. My favourite: Pictures \| Towns \| Attractions
Shirley K. Lawson Posts: 2310 Joined: 17th Jul 2008 Location: USA	quotePosted at 05:19 on 3rd February 2009 On 2nd February 2009 21:30, Bob T wrote: Real reasons for big bailouts Posted: January 26, 2009 1:00 am Eastern © 2009 George Bush let Treasury Secretary Paulson talk him into believing that he had to destroy capitalism in order to save it. The plan was to borrow massively against future American generations' paychecks to solve problems caused by previous massive borrowing. Last fall's $700 billion TARP bailout (assembled secretly in panic by Ted Geithner and others) was sold as crucial to save the economy from a cascade of bank failures and the elimination of credit. The original idea was to back up debt securities that were failing because of the real estate bust – debt securities that were largely owned by foreigners with a big chunk owned by the Chinese. The panic was caused by the thoroughly predictable inability of over-leveraged homeowners to pay "liar loan" mortgages that had been obtained using phony appraisals. Laws requiring banks to continue to loan mortgage money to un-credit-worthy people to expand the "American dream" of homeownership are still on the books and still being enforced. It's not a mystery why credit was drying up last fall when more and more banks refused to participate in this government-mandated Ponzi scheme without having the resultant bad debt guaranteed by the taxpayers. Worse yet, passage of the Bush bailout caused other entities seeking their own bailout to form a line. American Express sought to change its legal status to "banking" to qualify for a handout, and the auto industry didn't even bother with any such fig leaf justification when its executives came begging for a handout just because they needed the money. Even worse yet, the Bush bailout has failed. The banks have plenty of money but are using it to pay off their own debts and improve their balance sheets.In many cases banks flush with taxpayers money are using it to buy competitors, making sources of needed credit even scarcer. For example, Bank of America got $25 billion from the Bush bailout and promptly bought Merrill Lynch and a stake in the Bank of China, while cutting off or limiting credit to even its most credit-worthy customers. President Obama's proposed $825 billion "stimulus" bill will make matters much worse. While the Bush plan was a bailout of the private sector, the Obama plan is a bailout of government and a transparent plan to transform government into the dominant entity of American life and the Democratic Party as the permanent ruling class. Under the Obama plan, hundreds of billions of dollars would go to cash-strapped local and state governments with the most irresponsible of those getting the most aid. California, for example, has committed to spending $42 billion more than the state has over the next 12 months. The Democrat-controlled legislature has repeatedly stymied spending cuts, arguing for tax increases, while California's unemployment rate is poised to break into double digits. Look for California to seek the $42 billion from national taxpayers under the Obama public sector rescue plan. Under the Obama plan, tens of billions of dollars will go to special interest groups within the Democratic Party coalition. ACORN, for example, will be eligible for more millions of taxpayer dollars than it already has to continue voter registration (voter fraud?) activities to help cement Democrat majorities across the country. Planned Parenthood, environmental organizations and even trial lawyers have all been in Washington to make sure they get a piece of the "bailout" as well. Finally, the Obama plan provides for "tax cuts." The bulk of these "cuts" would be direct grants to Americans who already pay no income taxes. The pursuit of "tax fairness" has prompted both Republican and Democratic institutions to raise the threshold of income earned before any income tax is paid. And, in a bipartisan consensus, the Earned Income Tax Credit has provided "refunds" to taxpayers who paid no tax in the first place. The result to date is that more than a third of income-earning Americans pay no income tax, and many of these receive an annual subsidy in the form of EITC "refund." The Obama plan would expand the number of income-earning Americans who pay no income tax to more than 50 percent, thus providing a permanent base of majority vote to "tax the rich" and a permanent majority of votes to re-elect Democrats to office. It's now evident that the Obama-Reid-Pelosi Democratic Party has been handed the ultimate opportunity by George Bush to make government the dominant institution in American life. Which banks succeed and which fail will now be determined by Barney Frank and Chris Dodd. Which car manufacturers survive will now depend on whether their car designs meet with Nancy Pelosi's approval. Endless bailouts will provide trillions of dollars to ensure that every block in every neighborhood is organized by and for the Democratic Party. They will ensure that a permanent majority of voters will be mobilized to soak the rich to pay for "free" health care, and mortgage bailouts for the irresponsible paid for by the fools still making mortgage payments. Most Americans cannot fathom the illogic of going into even deeper debt to correct problems caused by reckless borrowing. This just does not make sense. But beneath the propaganda that tries to justify this illogic lies the reality that these "bailouts" represent the financing of a radical reconstruction of American society. This is the real reason (in addition to a flaccid Republican opposition) why despite overwhelming public disapproval, the serial bailouts will continue. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=87117 What are you talking about, that is exactly what they already DID under the Republicans.that's why we arehaving the problems we are having right now. Suposedly because he knew that those over$100,000 incomes are in an postion to havetax cuts, Obama made the recent cuts under income and the tax rates were adjusted accordingly over $100,000. Boeing corpration isoneof them that has ALWAYS been coming tothe governemt for some kind of bail-out. Itook supervisory classes with an whole group of them, they think they are above reproach to not getting anything they ask for in life in general, you do the paying.blasamey to the sacred laws of God in "conventing your brother's goods" or not...they feel justified in doing as they do, not as what they should be doing...let's take a look at my dad's old job, in the 60's he had "union" wages, he had full medical care, including dental, he had company pension, paid for, he had three weeks vacation every year and once every five years he had 10 weeks with 13 weeks pay, after 15 years of working there, he also had sick days, family funeral days, and early retirement if he chose. What do the kids of today have, minium wage, they have said that while they start at $8 or so it takes $16 to sustain the wages to live and keep an car these days and pay utilites, most of them have no dental at all,and only basic medical of which is taken out of their checks, they are lucky to get two weeks vacation and all benefits are mostly according to the number of hours worked and everyone knows employers are cutting hours so they can not obtain them. My son was just recently cut down in hours to where he couldn't keep the job and live on it,..why..he was close to picking up an earned pension plan. After quite a few years of accountable work he did for them also. this is so bad, even two senators inthe midwest were trying to get it passed in their states that people had to be paid an "working"wage...and yours sincerely (G. W. Bush) said it was against the laws of freedom in employment act or some such idiotic act to make us all poverty ridden. I would really like to know how come it is that "Ameirca"isn't for"Americans" any more.Christ they took in Ben Laden's group and gave them housing and paid for their training to fly airplanes, college grants to live on until they could blow up the world trade towers, but they sure in hell can't help the average generations old "Americans" right here in the country paying taxes...get an better education and live for less hardly these days. For them their son's get hauled off to die in an war not of thier making. I really don't care what politcal group they belongto, I wish they'd stop the dam bickering and do something about saving the country, if they even can manage it now..if it's not to late. If I had employees like they do people running the companies of today and our Government, I would of fired them an long time ago for inabilty to handle their jobs they were hired for...but then again I never had peoplearound that stayed much,if the job was an one way ticket for thier wealth to begin with anyway. Asyou can see I'm not swimming in riches right now either astheir leader, our common purpose was an divine one...associated with "life"of others that needed help, not an free for all game of cheating them because they were old and helpless. It's called giving "quality" to the living while they are living. Without it you have one nasty sinnister world out there you know, one in which the children are exploited and abused...the old, and the low-income. You know an country by how theytreat their old, children, and helpless citzens. My favourite: Pictures \| Towns \| Attractions
Shirley K. Lawson Posts: 2310 Joined: 17th Jul 2008 Location: USA	quotePosted at 06:16 on 3rd February 2009 On 2nd February 2009 21:26, Bob T wrote: On 2nd February 2009 19:40, Shirley K. Lawson wrote: PS...you can well understand how we feel watching "EX" pres. Bush building his 85,000 square foot "New" house..full pension for only working 8 years, etc. Shirley, Why do you have a problem with former President Bush building a new house? Would you feel the same way if it was Obama (who has pretty palatial digs himself), or the Clintons (who aren't doing too shabby I hear). How about Al Gore (who is pimping himself to the global warming crowd for millions), or even the Kennedys (who are touted by the liberal left as America's royal family but are nothing more than a family of criminals, moral reprobates, and political hangers-on). I lost more than 300K in this economy thanks to all of the above, and I will probably never be able to retire. But you know what? P*****g and moaning about the wealthy is not going to change a thing. I'm just going to have to work harder and longer and do whatever I can to keep my little piece of the pie. Our politicians are wealthy in their own right and there's no getting around that. All politicians are in the pockets of others and have no real concern for the general population. If we don't stand for something and hold our ground, then we will be taken to stand for nothing. I'm not moaning, I am hoping someone out there that has anything to say in how things are and can change things..just any one..just an wee start of someone, that's all it would take. I have waited 8 years to be able to say finally what I really think, because I toldmany peopleway back when..."NO" on what was goingon and I was told I was being "un-American" to not agree with "Bush" via them.. so I gave the man the benefit of doubt and hushed up and it's only gotten worse. You lost $300,000, so will we in an couple of years down the line in income. We have already lost $150,000 in the last four years time,plus half our retirement pension....none of it from our own doing also. But because we are in postions to not have our own say about how we want to make our lives these days. Yes, I would feel the same way with the Clinton's and others in the same circumstances...as I do with Bush. I hope by her indebtness in running for the political office she did and losing, she undersands now how others feel also...what they are facing. Enough so to make her expereince "count" in worth in behalf of others whiel she's in Government. You bring up an good subject, the general corruption these days. It does not do us good. As you so well point out, it really shouldn't matter what their name..or affliation is also. You can not tell the children of tomarrow to respect you when they see you as an drug laden, sex addicted, alcholic weak imbibing parent. You can not tell them to beleive in good and "God" when they are sexually misused in the church as helpless children, and suffer with mental anguish...and it conitues out into the world in thier daily lives.You can not give them an better world when there are strings tied to everything they do for the wealth of others..rather then in serving the needs of people individually for their general well being. They "know" deep within that there's something "wrong" these days. Our business's started out in "service" of some way to the people, it has evolved far from it these days. Not only in quallity, choice, but in pricing also. The rules of fair play and decency have been broken and it's coming back home to roost. No one is giving fair value for fair labor, and it's showing something terrible. From the top CEO all the way down and out the door to the customer level. We only have ourselves to blame if we lose all. I believe this country was made to be "God's" melting pot for the homeless myself..I beleive our greatness has always been delivered by the truth of the "divine" spark...and the only way it will ever be put out is if we forget that. The land does not belong to us, it's richness and it's wealth is not ours and ours alone to exploit..rather it be Al Gore doing it or the neighbor down the street.. Bob..it's "wake up" time!... we have to stop kidding ourselves and get back to the truth and what's correct in doing in serving "god" and then our fellow man the best we can...in the capacity possible...even without going to an church building,..and saying we beleive, we have to do it 24/7 on our own. I won't say any more, you'll see by what unfolds in the days ahead the path we should be taking or be on...by the outcome...its no longer obscure for the majority of us. We either sink or swim. Change or have what we got before us right now. Pay attention and speak up, or suffer the consequences. I think we are looking over the edge of the cliff right now. Let's hope that true "faith"is there to sustain us if we fall...and our benefactor shows up to save us...and more then anything we are smart enough to not get that close to the cliff to begin with any longer. My favourite: Pictures \| Towns \| Attractions