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Your thoughts on prayer 2

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Ruth Gregory
Ruth Gregory
Posts: 8072
Joined: 25th Jul 2007
Location: USA
quotePosted at 15:55 on 16th September 2008
On 16th September 2008 15:17, John Ravenscroft wrote:
Sue, there are many passages in the Bible where God actually tells people to kill others. 

That creates a problem or two for people who say he's a loving God. 



John, this opinion is one that is unformed by any sort of serious study of scripture.  It is fundamentalism at its finest and you are the last person I would refer to as a fundmentalist.  I'm reading a book right now called "Understanding Difficult Scriptures in a Healing Way."  I just might send it to you when I'm finished if you'd like.  The authors are Matthew, Sheila and Dennis Linn.  They write:

The Bible is not inerrant scientifically, historically or even morally.  As Richard Rohr, OFM, says, the Bible is not about morality, but about ontology.  Ontology refers to being.  The Bible is about our being, about who we are:  daughters and sons of God.  Thus, as scripture scholar Eugene LaVerdiere says, it is inerrant in its fundamental assertion of "God's intention to save all human beings and all that statement implies."

Why was Jesus always getting into trouble with the Pharisees and the Saducees?  Because he was turning their world upside down with his radical interpretation of those Hebrew scriptures.  As I said earlier, you have to take into consideration where and when each piece of the Bible was written and see it as the evolution of mankind's understanding of God.  It is a compilation, written over centuries.

Here's another paragraph from the Linn's book that sort of sums that up.  (They're discussing Matthew 5:38-42 where Jesus is telling people to turn the other cheek, and how it must be understood within its cultural and historical context):

"This passage is an excellent example of how difficult it can be for us to understand scripture in a loving way if we do not understand its context.  When a scripture contradicts our life experiences of giving and receiving love, we may need a good commentary to help us understand the historical and cultural context."

In other words, what you read in scripture must be filtered thru the gospel of love that Jesus preached in order to be authentic.

 

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Ruth Gregory
Ruth Gregory
Posts: 8072
Joined: 25th Jul 2007
Location: USA
quotePosted at 15:58 on 16th September 2008
On 16th September 2008 15:22, John Ravenscroft wrote:


And my point is that it is the source that's being studied.

The Big Bang is the source. 


I've always wondered what that big thing was that blew up.  Maybe it was a planet of God's creatures messing around with a particle accelerator or something.  As for where all the matter in the universe came from, the best explanation I've heard so far is that we can't explain it, so it must be God.

 

 

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Ruth Gregory
Ruth Gregory
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Joined: 25th Jul 2007
Location: USA
quotePosted at 16:02 on 16th September 2008

I wish I could stay and chat, but I gotta go.  I guess this is the excuse I'll use for being late for work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qAkEA-H_zE

 

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John Ravenscroft
John Ravenscroft
Posts: 321
Joined: 21st Sep 2007
Location: UK
quotePosted at 16:18 on 16th September 2008
Get to work, woman!
 
Ruth, as I'm sure you know the God of the Bible is covered in blood. 
 
Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor." 
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter." 
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword." 
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." 
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up." 
 
He is not the kind of God you'd want your daughter to marry! 
 
One of the many things that makes this conversation interesting (but also difficult) is that on one hand I have Sue recommending Answers in Genesis - which champions a literal view of the Bible, including Creation in one literal week, a Virgin Birth, a 6000 year-old Earth etc. - and on the other hand I have you saying the Bible is not completely inerrant, only certain parts of it are inerrant.
 

In other words, what you read in scripture must be filtered thru the gospel of love that Jesus preached in order to be authentic.

Not according to Answers in Genesis, Ruth - and the millions of Christians who subscribe to it. 

 


 
 
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John Ravenscroft
John Ravenscroft
Posts: 321
Joined: 21st Sep 2007
Location: UK
quotePosted at 16:24 on 16th September 2008
On 16th September 2008 16:02, Ruth Gregory wrote:

I wish I could stay and chat, but I gotta go.  I guess this is the excuse I'll use for being late for work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qAkEA-H_zE

 


That's brilliant, Ruth. Thanks for the grin!

As for your quip re the Big Bang... I'll leave that one hanging. Wink 

 

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Joined: 1st Jan 1970
quote | editPosted at 19:09 on 16th September 2008

John, I have popped in as I am about to post a few pics. Re the above. The only one I whole heartedly believe in is the birth of Jesus to a virgin. I won't ever be drawn into a debate about it. The others you mentioned, I have seen arguments that are quite plausible from both sides. It's not really important to my actual belief in God.

I will have a post for you tonight. After I have finished painting a masterpiece (not).

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John Ravenscroft
John Ravenscroft
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quotePosted at 19:24 on 16th September 2008
Jesus was just one in a long line of people who were supposed to be born of a virgin, Sue. It's a widespread, pre-Christian belief.
 
Mut-em-ua, the virgin Queen of Egypt, supposedly gave birth to Pharaoh Amenkept III through a god holding a cross to her mouth.

Ra, the Egyptian sun god, was said to be born of a virgin. So was Perseus, Romulus, Mithras, Genghis Khan, Krishna, Horus, Melanippe, Auge and Antiope.

In the ancient world, great men were born of divine fathers and human mothers. Alexander the Great and the Roman emperor Augustus were great men and (therefore) said to have divine fathers. Jesus was also a great man, so he too must have a divine father.

The claims of Jesus’ birth are no different from any of the other virgin birth legends. It doesn’t have any more evidence or appear to be any more likely. Why believe it over the others?

(I know you won't debate this - but I thought it was worth mentioning.) 

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Joined: 1st Jan 1970
quote | editPosted at 20:19 on 16th September 2008

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i3/answer.asp#f4  I am waiting for a watercolour wash to dry, John, and thought I would post this link. Could you possibly confine your comments to the page itself.

 

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John Ravenscroft
John Ravenscroft
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Joined: 21st Sep 2007
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quotePosted at 09:54 on 17th September 2008
On 16th September 2008 20:19, Sue Ryder wrote:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/creation/v20/i3/answer.asp#f4  I am waiting for a watercolour wash to dry, John, and thought I would post this link. Could you possibly confine your comments to the page itself.

 


What did you want me to comment on, Sue? Did you have specific points that struck you as powerful? 

As a general comment, I'll just say that this entire article is based on a deliberate misunderstanding of evolution. Although he never uses the terms, the author is talking about Microevolution and Macroevolution, and acting as if there's some magic line between them.

No such line exists.

Tto make our conversation easier, can you identify specific things in the article that impressed you? Then we can discuss them. 

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John Ravenscroft
John Ravenscroft
Posts: 321
Joined: 21st Sep 2007
Location: UK
quotePosted at 11:06 on 17th September 2008
Someone sent me this link yesterday.
 
 
It's entitled 'Proving that Prayer is a Superstition.'
 
I've just watched it twice, and it seems to me to be quite convincing. Ruth and Sue, I'd be particularly interested in your thoughts on the video.
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