Hi, Ruth.

I'm aware that I'm on dangerous ground here, and the last thing I want to do is upset anyone.

But I really don't like Faith. I think it's a cop-out. What's more, it's dangerous.

As Haldane said:

Hi John:  I think we've already established that we will respect each other's opinions on this forum, no matter how much we dsagree, so don't worry about expressing your thoughts.  I totally disagree with you about faith, but take no offense and respect your opinion.

As for the Haldane quote, I think it refers more to thinking independently about the practical and physical matters of this life, and doesn't really apply to matters of the spirit and heart, which of course, we've both agreed, can't be proven.

I'm fixin to run out the door again for work and I will be in the field for 2 days, so if you respond to this and I don't answer right away, I'll see you again on Saturday.  Kind regards, John.

John, I don't want to get bogged down in creation v. evolution, but the theory does have many holes in it. There are also many scientists that don't agree with Mr Dawkins and indeed take the opposite view.  I find his ceaseless quest to force his version of 'truth' onto the rest of us a touch arrogant, but, re my paste above, it's no surprise really.

Aside from that, many people down the centuries have died for their beliefs.....do you think if Mr Dawkins was put on the rack he would recant.....or would his 'faith' be strong enough to see him through to the bitter end? 

Thanks, Ruth. I'm aware that I'm the new guy here, and I don't want to rock the boat. The thing is, I love talking about this stuff.

In the UK, it's good pub-chat - but in the States it seems to be far more than that. Interesting cultural differences.

Haldane was talking about religious indoctrination. The fact that kids get told the God story very early on, and get it reinforced at school. I remember my own schooldays (6, 7, 8 years old) being made to pray at the start and end of every school day. These things go deep.

As he says, that's teaching kids that it's a virtue to accept statements without adequate evidence.

See you on Saturday!

No probs, Sue,

I'll respond properly later (after my supper)!

Rock away John, I think we're pretty evenly matched on this boat that no one is going to 'fall over the side'.

And I know a few people here who would think this forum is a bit like a pub-chat   .

We enjoy your comments.

Sue, evolution is a fact. Even Stephen J Gould (who you quoted above) agrees with that statement.

No serious scientist doubts the fact of evolution. Yes, there are arguments about the specific mechanisms of evolution - but the fact that it takes place is fully accepted and is hole-free.

Dawkins is rather strident, I agree - but he has his reasons. There's a discussion with him here that's worth listening to on this very point (13 mins in):

 http://www.pointofinquiry.org/richard_dawkins_science_and_the_new_atheism/

I have no idea how he'd perform if put on the rack. I think I'd be inclined to say anything to make them stop turning the cogs! But he may be braver than me.

It's not really a valid comparison, though. A Christian on the rack believes s/he will go to heaven if s/he keeps proclaiming the faith. That's quite an incentive to put up with the pain!

Dawkins on the rack wouldn't have that incentive, and neither would I.

And I know a few people here who would think this forum is a bit like a pub-chat   .

We enjoy your comments.