Your thoughts on prayer

Thanks, folks.

Posted a thank you message to the NHS here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNC9qXbE_qY 

I don't think the two views are contradictory John. Certainly there is a physiological component to “falling in love” but I think it’s part of a bigger picture which is a mystery. The chemical explanation is not love itself but rather the visible affects of love upon a human being.  When I am “in love” or falling “in love” I don’t really care to think about it in physiological terms.  I’d rather enjoy the experience. 

I am curious John, are you saying that when you look at someone you love you can break the “feelings” down into a chemical chain reaction and nothing more?

No, Diana, I can't break the feelings down. I feel what I feel, and it's impossible to pick that feeling apart and say, 'this came from that hydrogen bond, that came from a frisky carbon atom...'

But I do feel that every thought we have (and every emotion) has its roots in physical brain-activity. Amazingly complex brain-activity - but ultimately just atoms doing what they do.

I don't believe there is any supernatural or spiritual element involved.

John, I know the beautiful peacock's plumage is to attract a mate, without ever looking at the video. What I was actually referring to was the complexity as well as beauty of his display.

Why do you talk about proof? What proof are you putting forward?  The science world is divided still on many matters of evolution and it's quite a laugh to see them change their facts every so often. You said something about how wonderful it will be to discover the true orgins of life itself...coming soon to a forum near you!  That is quite a sweeping statement, when they are still fumbling around in the dark. The bible itself refers to this (the quest for the secrets of the universe) but it is beyond man to ever know all those secrets.

Just as a matter of interest Job 26 v 7 He spreads out the northern skies over empty space;
he suspends the earth over nothing.    I wonder how Job knew that 3000 years ago ?

Sue, did you actually watch the video? It's all about female choice and it explains why the Peacock's tail is so large, so complex, and so beautiful. It also shows you what happens when you trim the tail to make it smaller, less complex, and less beautiful. It's a very convincing demonstration of the power of sexual selection.

As for me talking about proof... as far as I know I haven't been. In fact I said earlier that science never really proves anything. I'm talking about evidence, and evidence is not the same as proof.

Scientists are not divided with regard to the basic fact of evolution. No scientist worth the name denies that evolution is a real, factual, measurable reality. There is some disagreement over the precise mechanisms involved - but that does not mean that evolutionary scientists 'change their facts.' What they do is refine their theories in the light of new evidence, and that's exactly what good scientists should do.

It will indeed be wonderful to discover the true origins of life itself, and I very much hope that discovery takes place within the next 30 years or so - I want to be around when it happens! If you really think we're fumbling around in the dark you haven't been watching the news, Sue.

The scientific approach is only 400 years old. In that brief period of time we've learned far, far more about how the universe works than we managed to learn in the hundreds of thousands of years before Francis Bacon. There's a lot more to learn, but we'll learn it through science, not through religion.

John, may I suggest you forget about scientific explanations and learn to live and enjoy life.

 I do not wish to contribute anymore to this thread, sorry.

Wolf, one of my greatest pleasures in life comes from learning and understanding. Isn't that true for everyone?

Ever since I was a kid, science has been a constant source of pleasure, fascination and joy. Forgetting about scientific explanations would, to me, be as horrible as forcing myself never to listen to or play music again. Unthinkable.

I'm sorry you won't be contributing to this thread again. I hope I haven't upset or offended you. As I said - I enjoy these debates.

I stopped contributing to this thread a little while ago and I’ll try to explain why.

 In some of my earlier comments I posed questions or put forward food for thought agenda but as always it seemed to me that awkward questions are usually ignored or I get quotes from the bible.

 Mankind has always asked questions and always will, that’s how we progress. Intelligent conversation can only occur if intelligent people partake, part of being intelligent is to have the ability to take on board other people understanding and interpretations of individual’s circumstances. I have always found with religion that the first line of defence for a believer is usually attack. Rather than try to understand a non believer I find I’m being manipulated into a position where I’m uncomfortable because I’m usually trying to be converted or not listened to.

 I have never understood how some people can be so convinced that what they believe is the truth. Surly it’s not difficult to see that’s simply unreasonable, a belief is nothing more than that, a belief.

 Having the ability to see wonderment in the world, be it a new baby or a work of art has nothing to do with faith, religion or a God. For those that do believe it does, for theses who have no faith, religion or God it doesn’t. I think we can all agree that the wonders of the world are shared by all so who can say you are wrong and I am right ?  I can understand why some people have to have a reason why the wonderment of a flower or bee exist but I can see no logic putting it down to a “god” . For some folk a God fills a nice gap in their understanding of things which as yet are beyond our understanding. As time progresses we lean more about our world and the way we think, as the world gets smaller we have to learn tolerance toward others beliefs and understandings. We can’t change history but we can have an input in our future. I would like to see religion put on hold while more important things like environment issues are addressed, without a world non of us will be able to tell each other who is right and who is wrong !!!!

Interesting thoughts, Mick.

I couldn't agree more that asking questions and searching hard for the answers is the way humanity progresses. I also agree ( and I'm talking from personal experience here) that very often people of faith are quickly angered by people who call their faith into question. I've spent time wondering about the response and come to a fairly obvious conclusion.

It's to do with emotional investment.

I believe that, if we're going to understand the universe and our place within it, we need to apply the methods of science. Those methods work. They result in clear, practical, real-world outcomes. The fact that I'm speaking these words at the moment, and my computer is turning them into text without me having to touch the keyboard, is a dramatic demonstration of that.

But I'm not really emotionally invested in science. If someone says science is rubbish, I don't get personally upset. I just think that person really doesn't understand what science is all about.

But generally speaking, if someone says to a religious believer 'religion is rubbish,' the believer does get personally upset. I assume that's because God seems to the believer to be a personal friend, so if I criticise their religion they feel I'm also criticising the most important person in their life.

I just find it fascinating to talk about this stuff because in real life we don't often get the opportunity to talk about things that matter really deeply to us. On the internet, the rules of conversation are slightly different and I love the fact that we can cut through some of the conversational fluff and discuss topics that are meaty and interesting.