Your thoughts on prayer

Hi, Alan.

It has often been noted John, that education proves to present the greatest barrier to faith of any kind,

 That's true - and there's a reason for it. Education gives you the tools you need to ask questions and examine arguments. It provides a light that can cut through the fog of unclear thinking on which Religion, it seems to me, depends.

As for those involved in 'Life Sciences', by which I presume you mean those who cause a great deal of unnecessary suffering to animals while conducting experiments which are not only needless but unenlightening...

No, Alan - that's not what I mean. The term 'Life Sciences' is the genearal name given to Biology and its related sciences. Fields such as Biomedicine, Cell Biology, Genetics, Marine Biology, Zoology etc. If you've ever needed to spend time in hospital or had medical treatment of any kind, you've benefitted from the work of thousands of scientists working in Life Sciences.

I assume the reason scientists working in those fields have the lowest rate of belief in God is because they understand the amazing mechanics of life far more clearly than the rest of us - and when they look through their microscopes they don't see God's hand at work.

Your use of 'Life Sciences' only shows how very desperate your argument has become.  They're the last people on (God's) Earth I would want to use in defence of anything, simply because their actions show them to be completely indefensible.

Alan, as I've said before all I'm trying to do here is discuss a subject we all seem to find interesting. I've also noted earlier in the thread that religious believers tend to become emotional (and sometimes angry) during such discussions.

Forgive me, but calling my arguments 'desperate' and trying to link me with people who abuse animals seems to me to be an example of 'angry believer.'

Didn't mean to cause offence, John, although I can see now how easily that could happen, but these people at Cambridge are top professors at the university, and what I believe is correctly known as 'Huntingdon Life Sciences' are killing animals in a most inhumane way, not to mention for no good cause.  One of their biggest critics is a distinguished Doctor, Dr. Vernon Coleman, well known as a top newspaper columnist on medical matters as well as frequent tv appearances.  The big firm of 'US chemists' I mentioned has their factory in Newcastle, not far from me.  My whole point here, and I'm sorry it's taken sdo long to get to it, is that these people from Cambridge U, consider themselves to be 'Life Scientists' and are the reason why their is a lot less respect for their kind. Touche?  I know its exactly the same as your point about religions.  This thread was never meant to be about Religion (and there are more and worse religions than Christianity) or about Life Scienc.  The thread, I seem to recall, is 'Your Thoughts On Prayer'.

Can I just say that there are many who consider themselves atheists, who put the blame on God for all the ills of the world, which means, of course that they're not atheists at all.  I don't blame the fairies at the bottom of my garden for the fact that I didn't win the Euro Millions jackpot this week (again) because I know they don't exist.  'Atheists' who then blame God when things go wrong, aren't really atheists at all, are they? 

I'm not at all offended, As I said earlier, because I'm not emotionally invested in Science, I don't take attacks on it personally.

Your point about Huntingdon Life Sciences doesn't really apply, in my opinion. It's rather like deciding you dislike every postmaster in the UK because your local village post office is run by a particularly unpleasant individual. As I said, 'Life Sciences' is simple a standard term meaning 'areas of study related to Biology.'

Can I just say that there are many who consider themselves atheists, who put the blame on God for all the ills of the world, which means, of course that they're not atheists at all.

Because it's impossible to prove a negative, Ruth, I have to say that God may exist.

But I say it in the same way I might say: the tooth-fairy may exist or Santa may exist or invisible pink unicorns may exist...

Of course, I don't believe any of those things really do exist - but I can't prove they don't.

In the same way, I can't prove God does not exist - but I think he's as unlikely as an invisible pink unicorn.

Thanks for you other interesting posts. I'll comment on them later today. Isn't it annoying how work gets in the way of pleasure?

But God is different, John.    LOL.

Seriously, I suppose if you don't believe there is a God, then He just falls into the fairy tale category with the unicorns and the fairies.  But don't box the idea of God into that type of linear thinking.  The concept of God that fascinates you is much bigger and more profound than any children's fairy tale, or any myth or legend.  I'm not saying I understand God at all, but thinking about Him in that limited context is suffocating to me.  I suppose that's one of the reasons I pray.  I don't believe you'll be able to get your arms around this concept from the experiences of others, John.  It's just to hard to put into words that can be understood with logic only.  As I stated earlier in the thread, trying to understand involves the heart as well as a spirit of humility. 

And yes, work does get in the way.  I could sit and discuss this all day - because I love God.

Thanks to you too, John.  Talk to you later.

John, I think that's code for  "Now how do I explain away Ruth's link that shows two thirds of scientists believe in God? Better get my thinking cap on!"

Ruth, I wish I had your  way with the english language. You express sentiments that I have, but put it so much clearer!

Thanks, Sue.  I have both orthodox and unorthodox beliefs about my prayer life and faith, and I've been working it out for a long time.  But when I look back at the posts and see all the typos, I cringe.  I guess I'll blame it on a mushy keyboard, LOL.

I don't have any doubts about the data that John posted.  His was data regarding the beliefs of UK scientists, the link I posted was about US scientists.  But the data in both indicate that it is biologists who are the fewest among believers, which I find astounding. The thing you have to be careful about in citing studies is "Who's doing the study?"  If it's bornagainchristians.org or atheismisnumberone.com, I don't care to see their data.  You can always find data and citations that will support your position on anything.  And I'm kind of like John here too.  I read the postings and then have to give it some thought before I respond.

The cultural difference is clear though. John pointed that out somewhere in the thread.  It's much more secular in Europe that the US. I think that has a lot to do with centuries of "baggage" over there that caused people to turn away from God because of religious strife.  It's too bad.  That's why I believe it's important to dig Christ out from under all the rubble and ritual.  His was a message of love and forgiveness and no one should let "religion" rob them of that.

No, Sue - no code at all. I'm just drowning in work.

Differences between studies are often explained when you look at exactly what questions were asked. I have no idea what questions were asked in the study Ruth mentions, but in a study published in the leading journal Nature in 1998, American scientists were asked the question: do you believe in a personal God?

As Ruth says, when you're looking at survey results you need to be aware of where they're coming from.

As I said above, Ruth, I assume the reason scientists working in those fields have the lowest rate of belief in God is because they understand the amazing mechanics of life far more clearly than the rest of us - and when they look through their microscopes they don't see God's hand at work.

As a believer, you find that survey result 'astounding'.

As an unbeliever, I find it natural.

I assume (correct me if I'm wrong) you find it astounding because you'd expect biologists to be convinced God must exist because you assume they see evidence of design as they go about their daily work.

Is that a fair assessment of your position?

Kind of.  I actually work with many biologists, many of whom are believers, many aren't.  But I think the quote I posted on the previous page by Kevin O'Sullivan is really more descriptive of what I believe. Of course, he's a Franciscan, so he has a bias. But this isn't about bias or surveys of how many believe and how many don't, or whether or not a belief in God squares with sound science.  It's about opening oneself to the possibility that there is a "creator."  Call me crazy, but, that's what I truly believe in John.