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John Ravenscroft Posts: 321 Joined: 21st Sep 2007 Location: UK | Posted at 09:04 on 3rd September 2008 "Any thinking man who observes this universe with its unity in diversity, with its multiplicity of being, their constitutional laws written in their very nature, and none having an internal explanation for its own existence, must rationally conclude that some supremely intelligent and supremely powerful being brought this universe into existence." Kevin O’Sullivan, OFM I don't see that as rational, Ruth. All it does is replace one mystery with another - the universe is too complicated not to have been created. So God must have created it. But if the universe is too complicated, how complicated must God be? Who or what created God? I know your answer to that will be 'God exists outside of space and time - he is the uncaused causer...' But that get-out clause makes O'Sullivan's argument irrational. If we can have an uncreated God, why can't we have an uncreated universe? I certainly don't call you crazy, Ruth, and I am open to the possibility that there is a creator - but as I said above, I think the possibility is vanishingly small. |
Posts: Joined: 1st Jan 1970 | editPosted at 23:56 on 3rd September 2008 John, let's cut to the chase. Please explain how life arose from non-living matter. |
| John Ravenscroft Posts: 321 Joined: 21st Sep 2007 Location: UK | Posted at 00:58 on 4th September 2008 We don't have a full answer to that question yet, Sue. But we're getting there. We certainly have much better answers than: God did it! For a good overview of the current state of research, read this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/history/inourtime/inourtime_20040923.shtml ... and listen to the related podcast. |
| John Ravenscroft Posts: 321 Joined: 21st Sep 2007 Location: UK | Posted at 12:55 on 4th September 2008 This interview with Andy Knoll is also worth reading, Sue. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/knoll.html I'd love to hear what you think of it - and also the 'In Our Time' podcast. |
| John Ravenscroft Posts: 321 Joined: 21st Sep 2007 Location: UK | Posted at 16:50 on 4th September 2008 Lots more info here, Sue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spontaneous_generation |
Posts: Joined: 1st Jan 1970 | editPosted at 19:49 on 4th September 2008 I read the second link you gave, John. I skipped the first when I saw Mr Dawkins on the credits. Very interesting and informative. And he actually came clean about the question I asked you above. The short answer is we don't know really know how life originated on the planet. I imagine my grandchildren will be sitting around saying that it's a great mystery. That spark of life. Nothing ever came from nothing.....nothing ever will. ( I think that's a song!) Perfect sense, though. I have the answer.......it's coming up. |
Posts: Joined: 1st Jan 1970 | editPosted at 19:58 on 4th September 2008 No it's not!! I had a wonderful copy and paste. A picture. But I don't seem to be able to paste it. |
| John Ravenscroft Posts: 321 Joined: 21st Sep 2007 Location: UK | Posted at 22:21 on 4th September 2008 As I said, Sue, we don't have a full answer to the question: How did Life begin? Not yet, anyway. But as Knoll says in the interview you quoted from: It's a mystery that we're going to chip at from several different directions. Geologists like myself will chip at it by trying to get ever clearer records of Earth's early history and ever better ways of interrogating those rocks through their chemistry and paleontology. Biologists will chip at it by understanding at an ever deeper level how the various molecular constituents of the cell work together, how living organisms are related to one other genealogically. And chemists will get at it by doing new experiments that will tell us what is plausible in how those chemical correspondences came to be. NOVA: Will we ever solve the problem? Knoll: I don't know. I imagine my grandchildren will still be sitting around saying that it's a great mystery, but that they will understand that mystery at a level that would be incomprehensible to us today. One of the many problems with simply saying God did it! is that such a view kills thought and prevents further inquiry. If you're convinced you know all the answers (because God is The Answer), you stop looking, stop wondering and stop growing. |
Posts: Joined: 1st Jan 1970 | editPosted at 23:59 on 4th September 2008 John! I so totally disagree. WHY should you stop looking, wondering and growing because it is God's handiwork??? I do not understand that reasoning at all. Though man might never discover all the mysteries, God put into him an enquiring and intelligent mind. I love reading articles on how we are made, or about the earth and universe around us (not too deep, though....I gave up on the second chapter of A Short History Of Time). Truly I cannot see why there being a God who created all this should make one iota of difference to your quest for answers to how and why it all works. What about Stonehenge and the Pyramids to name but a few. Historians and archaeologists do not stop studying and excavating these great wonders just because they know they were 'created'...constructed.. They continue to ask, how, and why they were created. |
Wolf Posts: 3423 Joined: 9th Jul 2008 Location: Australia | Posted at 01:46 on 5th September 2008 John, if you enter this thread, check out the LINKS thread, it could be of interest. |
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