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Your thoughts on prayer

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Ruth Gregory
Ruth Gregory
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Posted at 15:42 on 6th September 2008

John, I believe it begins with an act of surrender.  Not the surrender of reason or scientific evidence, but of opening up to other possibilities.  As for why it's different than believing in unicorns on Mars, or Zeus or Odin, belief in Jesus provides tools that help us to make choices in our lives - the choice to do good, the choice to love, the choice to cope with tragedy and not give in to despair.  I believe this is one of God's gifts to us.  Remember way back when in this thread, when you answered the question posed by Mick Bean:

"Mick, I certainly can't speak for all believers, but I know that many believers embrace religion because it comforts them. The idea of death scares most of us, and inventing an after-life and a loving God can take away that fear - as long as you truly believe He isn't an invention!

It's also true that religion gives easy answers to some of the difficult questions Life throws at us. Both atheist and religious parents who lose a child to illness or an accident will ask WHY? The atheist parents have to live with the belief that there is no reason at all for the death of their child, but the religious parents can comfort themselves in two ways. They can convince themselves it was all part of God's plan - and they can look forward to a reunion with their child after death.

Those are powerful reasons to believe."

I'm not saying that you can't make the right choices in life without a belief in God.  But if God gives this gift, why not avail yourself of it?  But you first have to believe, without proof, that God exists. 

 

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Ruth Gregory
Ruth Gregory
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Posted at 15:56 on 6th September 2008
On 6th September 2008 15:16, John Ravenscroft wrote:

Now, John, you know I wasn't talking about the organ that pumps blood.

What does the word 'heart' mean to you in that context?

I'm not being picky here: it's an important point. Many of your posts have indicated that I'll never appreciate what God means to you until I open up my heart to him. But what does that mean, Ruth?

It seems to me to mean something like this:

Abandon Reason. Accept things without evidence. Stop asking questions. Have Faith...

Can you give me a clearer understanding of what you mean? 


I don't know if I will ever be able to explain this to your satisfaction, John, but here goes:

As I said, opening up one's heart to God is an act of acknowledgement, first and foremost, and that is a choice.  And then I guess the next step would be prayer - not the rote prayers you learn at church or school, but just talking to him.

Does it mean abandoning reason?  Maybe.  Depends on what you mean by "reason."  As you become closer to God, he becomes very real indeed, which is a very unreasonable statement to one who doesn't believe there is a God.  But it doesn't mean abandoning science and evidence.  "Unreasonable" belief in God can stand side by side with sound science.

Does it mean accepting things without evidence?  Absolutely!  We've already established that, John.

Does it mean stop asking questions - NO!  Absolutel not, never.  We will never fully understand God and our relationship with him in a hundred lifetimes.  He expects to be asked, challenged, praised, thanked, ranted and raved at, etc.  It's all part of the search.  Check out the Psalms - they cover the range.  I think here's where the "religion" thing rears its ugly head.

 Does it mean having faith?  I think we've already established that too, John.

Does this help at all John?

 

 

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John Ravenscroft
John Ravenscroft
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Posted at 17:15 on 6th September 2008
On 6th September 2008 15:42, Ruth Gregory wrote:

  As for why it's different than believing in unicorns on Mars, or Zeus or Odin, belief in Jesus provides tools that help us to make choices in our lives - the choice to do good, the choice to love, the choice to cope with tragedy and not give in to despair.  I believe this is one of God's gifts to us. 


But Ruth, my point is that many other faiths have given believers the same kinds of tools you feel Christianity gives you. The people who held those beliefs held them just as strongly as you hold yours. In fact, Christianity seems to have borrowed some of its core doctrines from pre-Christian beliefs.

What makes your belief true and theirs false? 

 Here's an interesting essay:

http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/AD/concerningheaven.htm 

Pre-Christian Belief Concerning Heaven

The idea that "souls" go to heaven upon death long predates Christianity. A brief look at ancient history reveals that the people of Babylon and Egypt, as well as subjects of other ancient kingdoms, held similar beliefs.

According to This Believing World, by Lewis Brown, the Egyptian god Osiris was killed and reputed to be resurrected and taken to heaven: "Osiris came to life again. He was miraculously resurrected from death and taken up to heaven; and there in heaven, so the myth declared, he lived on eternally" (MacMillan, New York, 1946, p. 83).

Brown explains: "The Egyptians reasoned that if it was the fate of the god Osiris to be resurrected after death, then a way could be found to make it the fate of man, too . . . The bliss of immortality that had formerly been reserved only for kings was then promised to all men . . . The heavenly existence of the dead was carried on in the realm of Osiris, and it was described in considerable detail by the Egyptian theologians. It was believed that on death the soul of a man set out at once to reach a Judgment Hall on high . . . and stood before the celestial throne of Osiris, the Judge. There it gave account of itself to Osiris and his forty-two associate gods" (p. 84).

If the soul could satisfy the gods, "the soul was straightway gathered into the fold of Osiris. But if it could not, if it was found wanting when weighed in the heavenly balances, then it was cast into a hell, to be rent to shreds of the 'Devouress.' For only the righteous souls, only the guiltless, were thought to be deserving of life everlasting" (pp. 86-87).

Brown continues: "Mankind everywhere, in Mexico and Iceland, in Zululand and China, makes more or less the same wild guesses in its convulsive effort to solve the riddle of existence. And that is why we find this complex idea of a slain and resurrected god common in many parts of the world.

"In very early times that idea flourished not alone among the Babylonians and Egyptians, but also among the barbaric tribes in and around Greece . . . These mysteries [came] down from Thrace or across the sea from Egypt and Asia Minor . . . They declared that for every man, no matter how poor or vicious, there was a place in heaven. All one had to do was to be 'initiated' into the secrets of the cult . . . then salvation was assured him, and no excess of vice and moral turpitude could close the gates of paradise in his face. He was saved forevermore" (pp. 96-99).

Man has always wanted to live without ever dying. This world and all it offers has never been able to satisfy humanity. For centuries mankind has searched for security and happiness in the hope of going to heaven upon death. Unfortunately, he has embraced beliefs that he cannot prove true... 

 

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Ruth Gregory
Ruth Gregory
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Posted at 17:40 on 6th September 2008

You missed the last paragraph in your cut and paste, John:

"God alone knows the answers to the mysteries of life and death and reveals them in His Word, the Holy Bible. Contrary to what so many think, God does not promise heaven as the reward of the saved. Instead, He will grant eternal rulership in the Kingdom of God, to be established on earth at Christ's return (Revelation 5:10; 11:15)."

If anything, what all the extra-Christian or pre-Christian beliefs and the extent of it thoughout human history indicates to me is that, just possibly, (I'm not an expert here), we humans have an instinct for our creator.  You said in an earlier post that you think this need to believe is hard wired into our genes.  Have you given any more thought to that, John?  My discussion with you here is not meant as a defense of Christianity.  I choose to embrace Chrisianity because first, I loved Jesus' message (who wouldn't?).  Which lead me to believe and pray, which in turn had the effect of revealing to me a relationship with God, my creator and I don't mean in the Genesis sense.  God is very real to me, John.  In spite of no proof and in spite of any doubts I continue to harbor.

 

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editPosted at 17:50 on 6th September 2008

 I think Ecclesiastes 3 v 11 bears out this instinct down the ages for something other than self.

He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity into the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.

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Ruth Gregory
Ruth Gregory
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Posted at 17:55 on 6th September 2008

Yes, Sue, you're right.  And the passage from Acts that I asked John to read is the one about Paul touring Athens and noticing the shrine to the "unknown god" that he then went on to explain to them.

 

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editPosted at 18:29 on 6th September 2008
I was off painting, Ruth!  Exactly, as you say, and it all ties in with the search for something much bigger than ourselves.
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Ron Brind
Ron Brind
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Posted at 18:52 on 6th September 2008
I wonder what C. S. Lewis might have had to say about comments in this thread! Pity he didn't live just a few more years!!
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Ruth Gregory
Ruth Gregory
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Posted at 19:12 on 6th September 2008

I would have LOVED for him to have been part of this discussion, Ron.  I think Diana would too.

 

 

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John Ravenscroft
John Ravenscroft
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Posted at 19:31 on 6th September 2008
On 6th September 2008 17:40, Ruth Gregory wrote:

If anything, what all the extra-Christian or pre-Christian beliefs and the extent of it thoughout human history indicates to me is that, just possibly, (I'm not an expert here), we humans have an instinct for our creator.  You said in an earlier post that you think this need to believe is hard wired into our genes.  Have you given any more thought to that, John?   

Yup.

I don't think we construct God & Afterlife beliefs because we have an instinct for our Creator. 

I think these beliefs have their roots in fear of death.

The following makes sense to me, and explains why religious belief is so common and so deep-rooted.

Early man created God myths because of a combination of a need to explain what he experienced in his world, self-awareness, and the realization that death is an inescapable fact. All mixed in with a good dose of stress and fear.

Avoidance of situations that may cause death is common to all forms of animal life. Evolution sees to that. Put an animal in a situation in which death seems possible and it will be under severe stress. It will do its best to escape from that situation.

But when these crazy huge brains of ours got big enough to become self-aware, and when we saw death all around us, and when we saw there was no way for us to escape our own eventual death - the stress became constant and unbearable.

To stay sane, early humans had to find a way out of this dreadful dilemma - and the only thing they could do to ease the stress was construct a belief that said: OK, we die... can't deny that... poor old Ug died just the other day... but death isn't the end. There's a new life after this one. There are Gods to care for us. Gonna be pretty good, really. Something to look forward to. Yeah. Stress? What stress?

And many of us are still doing exactly the same thing today. 

You missed the last paragraph in your cut and paste, John. 

Indeed I did, Ruth. I was surprised to find the passages I posted on what is clearly a pro-belief website. 

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