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Ruth Gregory Posts: 8072 Joined: 25th Jul 2007 Location: USA | Posted at 15:42 on 6th September 2008 John, I believe it begins with an act of surrender. Not the surrender of reason or scientific evidence, but of opening up to other possibilities. As for why it's different than believing in unicorns on Mars, or Zeus or Odin, belief in Jesus provides tools that help us to make choices in our lives - the choice to do good, the choice to love, the choice to cope with tragedy and not give in to despair. I believe this is one of God's gifts to us. Remember way back when in this thread, when you answered the question posed by Mick Bean: "Mick, I certainly can't speak for all believers, but I know that many believers embrace religion because it comforts them. The idea of death scares most of us, and inventing an after-life and a loving God can take away that fear - as long as you truly believe He isn't an invention! It's also true that religion gives easy answers to some of the difficult questions Life throws at us. Both atheist and religious parents who lose a child to illness or an accident will ask WHY? The atheist parents have to live with the belief that there is no reason at all for the death of their child, but the religious parents can comfort themselves in two ways. They can convince themselves it was all part of God's plan - and they can look forward to a reunion with their child after death. Those are powerful reasons to believe." I'm not saying that you can't make the right choices in life without a belief in God. But if God gives this gift, why not avail yourself of it? But you first have to believe, without proof, that God exists.
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Ruth Gregory Posts: 8072 Joined: 25th Jul 2007 Location: USA | Posted at 15:56 on 6th September 2008 On 6th September 2008 15:16, John Ravenscroft wrote:
As I said, opening up one's heart to God is an act of acknowledgement, first and foremost, and that is a choice. And then I guess the next step would be prayer - not the rote prayers you learn at church or school, but just talking to him. Does it mean abandoning reason? Maybe. Depends on what you mean by "reason." As you become closer to God, he becomes very real indeed, which is a very unreasonable statement to one who doesn't believe there is a God. But it doesn't mean abandoning science and evidence. "Unreasonable" belief in God can stand side by side with sound science. Does it mean accepting things without evidence? Absolutely! We've already established that, John. Does it mean stop asking questions - NO! Absolutel not, never. We will never fully understand God and our relationship with him in a hundred lifetimes. He expects to be asked, challenged, praised, thanked, ranted and raved at, etc. It's all part of the search. Check out the Psalms - they cover the range. I think here's where the "religion" thing rears its ugly head. Does it mean having faith? I think we've already established that too, John. Does this help at all John?
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John Ravenscroft Posts: 321 Joined: 21st Sep 2007 Location: UK | Posted at 17:15 on 6th September 2008 On 6th September 2008 15:42, Ruth Gregory wrote:
What makes your belief true and theirs false? Here's an interesting essay: http://www.gnmagazine.org/booklets/AD/concerningheaven.htm Pre-Christian Belief Concerning HeavenThe idea that "souls" go to heaven upon death long predates Christianity. A brief look at ancient history reveals that the people of Babylon and Egypt, as well as subjects of other ancient kingdoms, held similar beliefs. According to This Believing World, by Lewis Brown, the Egyptian god Osiris was killed and reputed to be resurrected and taken to heaven: "Osiris came to life again. He was miraculously resurrected from death and taken up to heaven; and there in heaven, so the myth declared, he lived on eternally" (MacMillan, New York, 1946, p. 83). Brown explains: "The Egyptians reasoned that if it was the fate of the god Osiris to be resurrected after death, then a way could be found to make it the fate of man, too . . . The bliss of immortality that had formerly been reserved only for kings was then promised to all men . . . The heavenly existence of the dead was carried on in the realm of Osiris, and it was described in considerable detail by the Egyptian theologians. It was believed that on death the soul of a man set out at once to reach a Judgment Hall on high . . . and stood before the celestial throne of Osiris, the Judge. There it gave account of itself to Osiris and his forty-two associate gods" (p. 84). If the soul could satisfy the gods, "the soul was straightway gathered into the fold of Osiris. But if it could not, if it was found wanting when weighed in the heavenly balances, then it was cast into a hell, to be rent to shreds of the 'Devouress.' For only the righteous souls, only the guiltless, were thought to be deserving of life everlasting" (pp. 86-87). Brown continues: "Mankind everywhere, in Mexico and Iceland, in Zululand and China, makes more or less the same wild guesses in its convulsive effort to solve the riddle of existence. And that is why we find this complex idea of a slain and resurrected god common in many parts of the world. "In very early times that idea flourished not alone among the Babylonians and Egyptians, but also among the barbaric tribes in and around Greece . . . These mysteries [came] down from Thrace or across the sea from Egypt and Asia Minor . . . They declared that for every man, no matter how poor or vicious, there was a place in heaven. All one had to do was to be 'initiated' into the secrets of the cult . . . then salvation was assured him, and no excess of vice and moral turpitude could close the gates of paradise in his face. He was saved forevermore" (pp. 96-99). Man has always wanted to live without ever dying. This world and all it offers has never been able to satisfy humanity. For centuries mankind has searched for security and happiness in the hope of going to heaven upon death. Unfortunately, he has embraced beliefs that he cannot prove true...
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Ruth Gregory Posts: 8072 Joined: 25th Jul 2007 Location: USA | Posted at 17:40 on 6th September 2008 You missed the last paragraph in your cut and paste, John: "God alone knows the answers to the mysteries of life and death and reveals them in His Word, the Holy Bible. Contrary to what so many think, God does not promise heaven as the reward of the saved. Instead, He will grant eternal rulership in the Kingdom of God, to be established on earth at Christ's return (Revelation 5:10; 11:15)." If anything, what all the extra-Christian or pre-Christian beliefs and the extent of it thoughout human history indicates to me is that, just possibly, (I'm not an expert here), we humans have an instinct for our creator. You said in an earlier post that you think this need to believe is hard wired into our genes. Have you given any more thought to that, John? My discussion with you here is not meant as a defense of Christianity. I choose to embrace Chrisianity because first, I loved Jesus' message (who wouldn't?). Which lead me to believe and pray, which in turn had the effect of revealing to me a relationship with God, my creator and I don't mean in the Genesis sense. God is very real to me, John. In spite of no proof and in spite of any doubts I continue to harbor.
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Posts: Joined: 1st Jan 1970 | editPosted at 17:50 on 6th September 2008 I think Ecclesiastes 3 v 11 bears out this instinct down the ages for something other than self. He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity into the hearts of men, yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end. |
Ruth Gregory Posts: 8072 Joined: 25th Jul 2007 Location: USA | Posted at 17:55 on 6th September 2008 Yes, Sue, you're right. And the passage from Acts that I asked John to read is the one about Paul touring Athens and noticing the shrine to the "unknown god" that he then went on to explain to them.
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Posts: Joined: 1st Jan 1970 | editPosted at 18:29 on 6th September 2008 I was off painting, Ruth! Exactly, as you say, and it all ties in with the search for something much bigger than ourselves. |
Ron Brind Posts: 19041 Joined: 26th Oct 2003 Location: England | Posted at 18:52 on 6th September 2008 I wonder what C. S. Lewis might have had to say about comments in this thread! Pity he didn't live just a few more years!! |
Ruth Gregory Posts: 8072 Joined: 25th Jul 2007 Location: USA | Posted at 19:12 on 6th September 2008 I would have LOVED for him to have been part of this discussion, Ron. I think Diana would too.
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John Ravenscroft Posts: 321 Joined: 21st Sep 2007 Location: UK | Posted at 19:31 on 6th September 2008 On 6th September 2008 17:40, Ruth Gregory wrote:
Yup. I don't think we construct God & Afterlife beliefs because we have an instinct for our Creator. I think these beliefs have their roots in fear of death. Early man created God myths because of a combination of a need to explain what he experienced in his world, self-awareness, and the realization that death is an inescapable fact. All mixed in with a good dose of stress and fear. You missed the last paragraph in your cut and paste, John. Indeed I did, Ruth. I was surprised to find the passages I posted on what is clearly a pro-belief website. |