Your thoughts on prayer

I'm not denying that the 'big bang theory' is probably very well founded, even true.  But I cannot believe when I look at the Universe in all its wonderful complexity, that it's nothing more than an accident caused by a super explosion.  It's all much too ordered for that!  The planets, all in their own places, the comets even, hurtling along at super speed, yet keeping to a time table that would be immpossible for any public transport system devised by man.  Everything is so compex, yet so ordered, that in it all I see unmistakably the Hand of God.  I'm just sorry that others cannot see it too, as palainly as I do. 

Well said Alan.  I agree.  The world, the universe, it's all too complex and to ordered to be a mere accident.  Somebody must be holding it all together!

John,  please believe me when I say that I would never try to force my feelings or opinions onto someone else.  It wouldn't be worth it.  Every single person in this whole wonderful world has to find their own way in the tinal analysis.  I've been through a lot, and it would be unfair of me to con you into thinking my faith had never been challenged by my experiences, or that I'd never been found wanting.  But my belief in God is not altered by my acceptance of science.  The two can live together very happily, and without World War 3 breaking out.  Which is wyy I refuse to believe for a single minute that you and I will fal out simply because we have differing points of view.

I willingly respect your position, and hope that in return you will offer me the same simple courtesy.  It's how people of good will, whether Christian or atheist, get on together.

Well said Alan, from me too!  The universe, or what we can see of it is, staggering in its complexity and beauty, but there is order in everything. I also see the Hand of God at work.

Mick, speaking only for myself, I have no desire to change your or John's beliefs. I am just defending my own. Like Alan, I am sorry that due credit isn't given to a the Supreme Being for his stupendous handiwork. But that is entirely up to you and I respect that. If anyone is trying to 'convert' around here it's John!!

Alan, as I'm sure you know this is one of the classical arguments for the existence of God. It's known as the Argument from Design.

I'd love to discuss it with you (and with Diana and Sue) but I honestly don't want to upset or annoy anyone - so if people would rather let this discussion die a natural death, that's fine by me.

I'd like to clear up an apparent misunderstanding, though.

I'm not trying to 'convert' anyone to atheism. As I've said several times, I enjoy a good, thoughtful, passionate debate - and I've been enjoying this one. I know Ruth (and others) have been enjoying it, too. I hope it continues, because we've hardly scratched the surface here - and I think it's always a good thing to take out our most deeply-held beliefs, oil and polish them, and make sure we still have good reasons for holding them.

Which is why I refuse to believe for a single minute that you and I will fall out simply because we have differing points of view.

I'm sure there's no danger of that, Alan. We're both far too old to start acting like kids in a playground!

For a minute I thought Sister Mary Ruth was going to have to show up with her ruler to put this back in order!!  LOL!  But no, I think the kindness and respect that we established early on is holding and you're all to be commended for it.  You are right Mick, about believers becoming defensive and I think you hit the nail on the head, John, when you talked about how emotion enters into it.  It's definitely a hot button topic, and hits people where they live, right in the gut.  And I think the conversations deteriorate, just like in real face-to-face verbal conversations, when you lead with your emotions.  It's important to choose words wisely and meet people where they are.  And as for humble pie, Andy, all of us could use a little slice couldn't we?  LOL.

Thanks for the input guys.  Just like any other of the threads, when people run out of things to say here, the conversation will stop.  But I'm enjoying it.

 What you guys discussed about love and the clinical aspect of it.  I don't dispute any of the research.  I just believe that it originates with God.

I've heard the Holy Spirit referred to as the duct tape of the universe, Diana.