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Your thoughts on prayer

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Mick Bean
Mick Bean
Posts: 188
Joined: 1st Jun 2007
Location: England
Posted at 20:33 on 14th August 2008
On 14th August 2008 18:06, Diana Sinclair wrote:
Mick, I can certainly understand your reticence. I am a believer but I am very comfortable with my beliefs and enjoy exploring other options.

Sometimes (though this is not true for all people), spoon-fed believers who don't yet know WHY they believe what they do, are the most ardent defenders of their faith. But often it is a defense based on fear. They haven't personally done the work necessary to build a foundation under their belief system, rather, they believe because they have been taught to or are afraid not to believe. Thus, when someone comes along spouting contrary teachings they are easily shaken.

I have found that people who are more open to exploring all faith options (including no faith), test their own beliefs frequently and this process either strengthens their stand or changes it. But in either case they are generally happier to let others have their opinion without offense, because they have tested their faith against all they fear and they are consequently stronger for it.

 

I said I would not respond, how could I not.... Thank you Diana
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Diana Sinclair
Diana Sinclair
Posts: 10119
Joined: 3rd Apr 2008
Location: USA
Posted at 20:42 on 14th August 2008
You're welcome Mick.Smile
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Joined: 1st Jan 1970
editPosted at 22:38 on 14th August 2008
I agree with your sentiments, Diana. But for millions of people, their faith just IS. They don't feel the need to explore different options  or test their beliefs. Often life tests their beliefs and that is when they discover the strength and depth of their faith. I'm not even a chuchgoer though I was raised as a Roman Catholic, so I can hardly be described as 'devout' in any shape or form. I would never think of pushing my belief in God onto anyone else....indeed I find the opposite is true at times. Persons of no belief usually throw down the gauntlet, and we can either pick it up or step over it. I prefer to pick it up. Like you I am comfortable in my faith and do not see any need to apologise for it. You mentioned tolerance some pages back and that is exactly what is needed....from athiests as well.
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John Ravenscroft
John Ravenscroft
Posts: 321
Joined: 21st Sep 2007
Location: UK
Posted at 23:33 on 14th August 2008
On 14th August 2008 18:06, Diana Sinclair wrote:
Mick, I can certainly understand your reticence. I am a believer but I am very comfortable with my beliefs and enjoy exploring other options.

Sometimes (though this is not true for all people), spoon-fed believers who don't yet know WHY they believe what they do, are the most ardent defenders of their faith. But often it is a defense based on fear. They haven't personally done the work necessary to build a foundation under their belief system, rather, they believe because they have been taught to or are afraid not to believe. Thus, when someone comes along spouting contrary teachings they are easily shaken.

I have found that people who are more open to exploring all faith options (including no faith), test their own beliefs frequently and this process either strengthens their stand or changes it. But in either case they are generally happier to let others have their opinion without offense, because they have tested their faith against all they fear and they are consequently stronger for it.


Excellent points, Diana.

I always find it amazing that many, many people don't question their beliefs. Generally speaking, we get our early beliefs from our parents and from our experiences at school. Parents and Schools are useful things - but they're not all-knowing. Some kids are brought up to believe crazy stuff, and if they never question what they're taught and never test it against reality, they can end up leading very narrow lives.

I think we all have to work out our own world-view, in the light of experience. And yes, we need to accept that other individuals have different world-views.

Sue, I don't think exchanges between believers and atheists need to be seen as an exercise in gauntlet-throwing. They do often become that, but if the gauntlets are quietly put to one side you can get some fascinating discussions going.

 

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editPosted at 00:10 on 15th August 2008
You are right, John. We can certainly discuss our differences. I am going to do my homework and come up with some equally scientifc dogmatism that compares with 'answers in Genesis'.  I will try to show that we believers are not 'hillbillies' as Mr Dawkins once described us,( amongst other things).. How's that for certainty.
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editPosted at 00:18 on 15th August 2008
I did  mean to pop up this JohnSmile. All good friends no matter what differences.
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Wolf
Wolf
Posts: 3423
Joined: 9th Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posted at 05:04 on 15th August 2008

The following prayer brought tears to my eyes.

A DOG'S PRAYER

Treat me kindly, my beloved master, for no heart in all the world is more grateful for kindness than the loving heart of me.

Do not break my spirit with a stick, for though I should lick your hand between the blows, your patience and understanding will more quickly teach me the things you would have me do.

Speak to me often, for your voice is the world's sweetest music, as you must know by the fierce wagging of my tail when your footsteps falls upon my waiting ear.

When it is cold and wet, please take me inside, for I am now a domesticated animal, no longer used to bitter elements. And I ask no greater glory than the privilege of sitting at your feet beside the hearth. Though had you no home, I would rather follow you through ice and snow than rest upon the softest pillow in the warmest home in all the land, for you are my god and I am your devoted worshiper.

Keep my pan filled with fresh water, for although I should not reproach you were it dry, I cannot tell you when I suffer thirst. Feed me clean food, that I may stay well, to romp and play and do your bidding, to walk by your side, and stand ready, willing and able to protect you with my life should your life be in danger.

And, beloved master, should the great Master see fit to deprive me of my health, do not turn me away from you. Rather hold me gently in your arms as skilled hands grant me the merciful boon of eternal rest--and I will leave you knowing with the last breath I drew, my fate was ever safest in your hands.

 

 

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Wolf
Wolf
Posts: 3423
Joined: 9th Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Posted at 05:06 on 15th August 2008

and I found this poem very thought provoking.

Just A DogDon't ever call him, "just a dog."
Who haven't the eyes to see
That I belong to him as much
As he belongs to me
God must have had His reasons
For making the likes of him
And I humbly hope with all my heart
...that I was one of them
The years have dulled his russet color
And his vision is getting dim
And he walks with a limp when the days are cold
Cause the dampness gets to him
He's not as young as he used to be
And his whiskers are frosted white
But he wags his tail as if to say
"You see, I'm still alright."
I cut his food in bite size chunks
And he gives me a toothless grin
Trusting in my love for him
Whatever shape he's in
He has accepted growing old
The way men cannot do
And I'm not ashamed to say he's taught
Me more than a thing or two
So, don't ever call him "just a dog"
Unless you are prepared
To match his steadfast loyalty
To care the way he's cared
For many the sad offenses
Committed in love's name
And how many times it takes a dog
...to put a man to shame!!!!

 

 

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Ruth Gregory
Ruth Gregory
Posts: 8072
Joined: 25th Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posted at 06:31 on 15th August 2008
Wow, what a great discussion everybody.  I don’t know, Mick, if you read the thread from the beginning, but I think we all agreed early on that this would be a respectful discussion.  I’m glad you shared your thoughts.  Thank you.
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Ruth Gregory
Ruth Gregory
Posts: 8072
Joined: 25th Jul 2007
Location: USA
Posted at 06:32 on 15th August 2008
John, when I mentioned a comparison to Aesop’s Fables and the Bible, what I meant was that there was a moral to the story.  And what Diana says about what the Catholic church believes, yes, they and I believe them to be the inspired word of God.  But as I stated, you can’t pick and chose, or take things out of context.  They can’t be understood properly that way.  And I have a real problem with fundamentalism.  But, as I’ve said so many times in this thread, that’s my opinion.  I think I have a fairly good grasp of scripture, but I’m always learning something new.  But I approach the scriptures through prayer.  I truly believe that if you ask, seek and knock in your approach to understanding scripture, your eyes will be opened.  But you have to start with an open mind and open heart.
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