Your thoughts on prayer

I agree 100% with this, Mick.

The interesting thing is, I've had God discussions with people before and frequently found myself accused of not having an open mind! When I point out that I'm interested in the truth and am perfectly willing to change my mind about anything if convincing evidence is presented to me - they point to the Bible.

When I tell them the Bible isn't evidence, they come out with a version of this (which again is from the website Sue recommends):

http://www.answersingenesis.org/about/faith

No apparent, perceived, or claimed interpretation of evidence in any field, including history and chronology, can be valid if it contradicts the Scriptural record.

Now, when people tell you that, it kind of makes further discussion pointless. What it says, quite explicitly, is this:

'I'm a believer and I know my belief is true. No evidence of any kind, no matter how rock-solid, will make me change my mind if it contradicts what I read in my holy book.'

If that's the stand people take, then they're simply not open to reasoned discussion. Which is a shame, because I quite enjoy reasoned discussions.

John, I agree with this statement.  God could have created a world where such horrible things would not happen. He could have created android like people who have no ability to do other than what they were programmed to do.  But then, we wouldn’t be having this fabulous, thought provoking discussion.

My understanding is that God created human kind in his image. I don’t believe God has a physical dimension (at least not physical in the sense that we know it), the “stuff” of which God is composed is invisible to us, so that must mean that we were created to be like Him rather than to look like Him. He has extended to us His ability to think, reason, and create. More, He has given us the free will to do as we wish with these gifts. That would include the freedom to believe or not to believe in Him.

I am not a scientist, nor do I claim to be an authority on such things, but I do know that science has proven that all physicality is composed of invisible “stuff” like atoms, atoms consists of a nucleus surrounded by electrons, a nucleus contains protons and neutrons, which are made up of quarks, and these electrons and quarks are elementary particles which cannot be divided further (at least not that we know of) etc, etc.  The point being, that if this is, an albeit simple, explanation of what’s really behind what we think we see, then how arrogant of us to think that God in his dimension (where ever and what ever that may be) would be so easily explained. 

That God can not be seen with the human eye does not mean God doesn’t exist. Of course it also doesn’t prove that He does exist. I once rented an apartment from a woman I never met nor even spoke to. How do I know she was real?  I have no proof except that the apartment existed and my rent check was cashed every month. Neither of these facts prove her existence but neither do they disprove it.

Diana, you've made two different statements here:

1 - God could have created a world where such horrible things would not happen.

2 - He could have created android like people who have no ability to do other than what they were programmed to do.

Statement 1 has nothing to do with statement 2.

Let's forget the notion of free will for a moment and concentrate on why a loving, all-powerful God would create a world that has in it such horrors as earthquakes, floods, malaria etc. If he loves humanity and is all-powerful, why would he inflict such misery on his most precious creations?

That God can not be seen with the human eye does not mean God doesn’t exist.

But Diana, you can say that about anything! If I tell you I have an invisible friend called Fred who lives in a cave on Mars, you can't prove Fred doesn't exist. You can ask me to prove it, and if I can't give you any Fred-related evidence, you'd be perfectly justified in thinking I was a victim of my own over-heated imagination.

You can't prove Invisible Fred doesn't exist - but I expect you think he almost certainly doesn't.

That's how I feel about God.

John, as a believer in God I can not forget about the notion of free will.  Science tells us that every decision we act upon affects our world and actually creates many of the conditions to which you refer. It seems to me that free will has everything to do with the conditions we see in the world today. God gave us the world (to rob the lyrics from a popular song), a biosphere, a complex, subtly balanced, life support system; is He to blame if we make choices that disrupt that subtle balance? Should He protect us from the consequences of our own actions? Do our choices make Him unloving?

For the sake of argument let's say I have a child (I don't), I send that child out to play and give him instruction on how to maximize his fun and avoid pit falls.  He chooses to ignore my warnings and ends up with a broken arm, a bloody nose, or friends who will no longer speak with him.  Did I create those conditions? No. By his choices to work against the laws of gravity and friendship he has caused these things to happen to himself. I gave him everything he needed to enjoy his play time safely but he exercised his freedom to his own harm. I can not (and would not if I could) spare him the consequences of his own actions because to do so would be a greater injustice in my mind.  To shield him from the effects of his choices teaches him nothing, and I want him to learn to make the right choices for the right reasons; am I an unloving parent because of the choices my child made? Does my child's behavior define my character?

As to Fred, well, there is a big difference between Fred and God.  God created the universe and the laws that govern it; He can do whatever he pleases, including usurping those laws. Fred did not and can not.

Still, you are a formidable challenger John and I enjoy these discussions!

Hey, Barbara - there's nothing wrong with a little heat! I fully appreciate there are people here who are passionate about their beliefs, just as I'm passionate about my ability to reason. Passion is good. And like Diana, I very much enjoy these discussions.

Diana, with respect you've side-stepped my point. I asked about earthquakes etc. because there is no way you can blame such events on humanity. If you believe God created the world, then you have to accept he created a world that has a molten core, huge continental plates - and as a result earthquakes, volcanic activity and so on.

Because of that, millions of people have died when they need not have done.

God is all-powerful. He could have created a world that didn't suffer from earthquakes. So why didn't he?

As to Fred, well, there is a big difference between Fred and God.  God created the universe and the laws that govern it; He can do whatever he pleases, including usurping those laws. Fred did not and can not.

Ah, but I haven't told you all I know about Fred. Actually, he did create the universe and the laws that govern it - and he can break any law he wants to break.

Now, I can say that about Fred just as you can say it about God - but neither of us can produce any convincing evidence. So why is God any more likely than Fred?

Diana,

 Excellent analogy of parent and child.  It reflects the same relationship we have with God - he's the Father, we're his children.  With our free will, he allows us to make choices, good and bad, as part of the learning and growing process to help us along the path to becoming more like Him. He also allows things to happen, for reasons known only to Him (He is God, after all), that are tragic.  If we were able to understand why bad things happen to good people, and why catastrophic events occur, etc., we would be able to understand the mind of God, which I don't think is possible, at least not in these mortal bodies.

Barbara, I'm glad you've joined in this discussion. I like your style!

I hope you'll take my responses as they're intended - just offerings in a debate that I find endlessly fascinating.

So, I have a question for you.

When you say:

he allows us to make choices, good and bad...He also allows things to happen, for reasons known only to Him (He is God, after all), that are tragic...

... where do you get that information from? How do you know that's what God has in mind? 

Because it seems to me that on the one hand you're saying you have some kind of limited insight into God's mind and intentions, but on the other hand you're saying you don't think that's possible.

Thanks, John (I think)!  You're good at this, aren't you?  ;-)  Where I get that "information" from is from the beliefs that I have had for so long, and from what I was taught growing up.  I don't have any specific Bible verses to use to illustrate or prove my statement.  If you're not a believer, then it would probably be wasted effort because you would have to be able to believe the whole story (creation, fall of mankind into sin, God wiping out sinful mankind with a flood, except for a select faithful few, etc.) in order to accept that there would be any purpose to his allowing bad things to happen as part of the process of ultimately bringing the people back to a state of perfection.  My faith is really hard to explain in pieces to a non-believer.  There are a lot of things I believe that I can't prove or explain by tangible, scientific, rational methods but I simply believe them.  I should have said that I believe he allows things .....

John, also with due respect (I mean that and am not being facetious); I did not side step your point. You asked why a loving, all powerful God would create a world that has in it such horrors as earthquakes, floods, malaria etc.  But you also said that you wished to leave the notion of "free will" out of it.  I responded that I could not answer that question without involving the concept of free will because it is an integral part of the equation for a believer. I then proceeded to explain the fact that science has proven that mankind is in fact responsible to a very large degree for so called natural disasters. 

Few doubt that human emissions are causing long-term climate change, which is predicted to increase storm surges, drought and possibly hurricanes. But recent findings indicate that we can also trigger sudden “natural” catastrophes such as mud volcanoes, earthquakes, flooding, and hurricanes to name a few.

Officially, there is an area of research devoted to man-made earthquakes. Geologists and seismologists agree earthquakes can be induced in five major ways: fluid injection into the Earth, fluid extraction from the Earth, mining or quarrying, nuclear testing, and through the construction of dams and reservoirs.

Cloud seeding is just one way that floods and even hurricanes have been induced or made worse (albeit unintentionally) by man.

It would seem that we (human-kind) have manipulated the earth to our own detriment. We have awakened a tiger we can’t put back to sleep. With little thought to how our environment would be affected we have damaged (possibly irrevocably) our own life support system; and yes, you are right, millions of people have died when they need not have done, all due to the greed of man.

And now back to Fred; you write, “..he (Fred) did create the universe and the laws that govern it – and can break any law he wants to break.”  I’d say you believe in God and just don’t know it.  LOL!

In the end John, I think we both know that neither one of us is going to change the other's mind. I think it takes as much faith to NOT believe in God as it does to believe in Him.

I like your inquisitive mind John. It is nice to have someone to "spar" with. LOL!